I think I finally understand why so many AAA "RPG" games flop these days. *Finished*

Hey Yall.

I recently just finished my first playthrough on CP2077 and am now on my second playthrough, about halfway done. My friend and I have been discussing the flaws lately and it made me realize where so many RPGs in the past decade struggle to really have an impact.

I will talk about cyberpunk in this post, but I will blur the spoilers for it. Though fair warning. If you read everything else you will likely realize what im talking about and have it spoiled regardless to some extent. Please, if you have interest in cyberpunk, play it first. It has its flaws, but it still has a very good story that is worth experiencing for yourself, and I dont want to ruin that with this topic.

Spoiler Warning------------------------------------------------------

Anyways so now id like to list off some games ill try to bring up in this discussion, both good and bad, and try to explain why they succeeded and failed. Today ill be talking about Fallout 3, New Vegas, and 4, skyrim, witcher 3, KOTOR, Cyberpunk 2077, Detroit Become Human, and The Mass Effect Franchise. These are all games that im familiar with enough to speak on, but bear in mind my memory isnt great so not everything I say will be necessarily precise. All of these games stories will be talked about in some spoiler Capacity, but since they are all old, im not as worried about it as I am CP2077.

Alright now that thats out of the way we need to ask ourselves a question, What is an RPG? An RPG is a Role-Playing Game, Which can be viewed as one of two ways. For example, In the likes of most RPG Games, you are playing the Role of a Pre established character, allowing the player to make meaningful choices, Though This role can be very vague or very predefined. In the vague examples, Your characters origin doesnt matter as much or at all, as once you exit the character creator, Your “Past” serves as nothing but a backdrop for the story/setting at Large, And the character is yours to make what you will of it. In the Predefined examples, your characters origin greatly impacts not only the focus of the main story, but also what you do with your character, Choices are far more limited, and while there may be small variances, the story is mostly linear, and ends with very specific outcomes, regardless of the choices you make. I would like to put the games I mentioned under each category, but bear in mind, Not all games Suffer, or benefit, from the category they are under, As well as some of them Starting as one, and evolving into the other.

Vague:

Fallout: NV
KOTOR
Skyrim

Predefined:

Fallout 3&4
Witcher 3
CP2077
Mass Effect Franchise
Detroit: Become Human

All of these games, In my opinion are all good games, in some way. But some in my opinion struggle in the RPG Genre, If that is the focus. And as you can see, That is the purpose of this post. To try and analyze These games, and figure out how they can be made better going forward.

Take for example the difference between Fallout 3/4, And New Vegas. Fallout 3 and 4, Whilst still being Great games, Struggled to appease RPG players, Whilst New Vegas, Using the exact same engine, Managed to truly reach most RPG players. Why is this? Its because of the most important thing in an RPG. Choice. Whilst All three of these games have tons of meaningful choices throughout their games, Fallout 3&4 Follow Highly linear main stories, Centered around The Predefinition of their main protagonist. New Vegas, While it also has a Predefinition of the protagonist, Has a main story focused not on the protagonists story, but on the world, The setting. All roads in 3&4 Lead down paths that really dont make a vast difference in the story, Not only stripping the player of meaningful choices, But also creating the illusion of choice to attempt to make the Player feel that the protagonist is theirs, When its not. Where as New vegas, Allowed you to truly make your protagonist, into your character, And while all roads still converged, They didnt ride alongside each other, they took far different paths, and had vastly different outcomes (Though in fairness New Vegas is the only of the three that you cant actually play in the world of those outcomes afterwards).In terms of side content however, All of the Fallout Games, Are very good about allowing the player to make the protagonist theirs, Though in fallout 4 this was slightly less so, as choices were far less important.

Skyrim and the Witcher 3, are interesting to compare, in RPG elements, because they, whilst having vastly different approaches, End up with similar situations. Skyrim starts out with a Quite Vague Character, Whilst Witcher 3 (especially considering its the third in a Series) Had a Predefined Character, However both suffer from highly linear main stories, Where the choices you make have very little impact on the outcome. Yet both are considered some of the greatest games of all time, Because aside from those main stories, They are the best in their respective approaches, about giving you meaningful choices and consequences, that impact the world, and the characters.

Detroit Become Human is interesting. On this list, It is the most linear in a technical sense. All other games on this list, have Open, Or Semi Open worlds. Despite the Protagonists involved being highly Predetermined, Every choice you make, changes the road you take, from start to end, And Not only affects the outcome of said protagonists, but makes a significant impact on the world the game is set in.

KOTOR is also an interesting RPG, As it begins highly vague, but ends relatively Predefined, with one of the best twists in all of gaming. It is a great example of the best of both worlds, The Protagonist is both your character, and simulataneously not. This allows the RPG side of the game to flourish, without sacrificing a personal plot.

Next, The Mass Effect Trilogy, A Trilogy Predefined from start to finish, But with still enough vagueness, to allow for the player to make the protagonist theirs, and truly impact the outcomes of many of the characters the player comes to love. Once renowned as some of the best AAA RPG games, The dissapointment for this series, is because While the choices you make matter on a personal level, with the characters surrounding you, they end up amounting to little by the end.

Finally Cyberpunk 2077. A Game that Seems to start off vague, but is predefined entirely throughout. One of the better stories, That ive played through in a long time, A truly unique one that belongs up there with the greats, But Fails as an RPG very much so. The Main Story is so focused on two protagonists, that the side content doesnt really have room to breath. Where like mass effect before it, Choices you make, can impact the devolopment of characters the player grows to love, ultimately the outcome is relatively unchanged.

So what is the key takeaway from all of this? In my opinion it has to do with the approaches to the genre. The best games in this list, allow for meaningful choice that have consequences, And impact The protagonist, The characters, and the world All together. Where as the Most critisized games in this list, suffer across the board from their main stories and the linearity that comes with their predefined characters and story. Fallout 4, Cyberpunk 2077,And to some extent The Mass effect Series, Skyrim, Fallout 3, And Witcher 3, Suffer because of the linearity of the stories they tell. This is Prevalent in most games, All of which have massive pacing issues. In Fallout 4 The story is a rush to find shaun. In fallout 3 the story is a raced to find dad. In Cyberpunk Its a rush to get The Relic and Johnny out of your head. In Witcher 3 Its the race to find Ciri. In all of these games, while the main story isnt technically time sensitive, It makes little sense for the protagonist to be mucking about with side quests, rather than completing the Predefined goal. A goal that leaves very little room for choices and consequences, because the entire game is centered around it.

Where on the other hand, Games like New vegas, and Skyrim Give the player a World and a protagonist that is free to make an impact on the world through actions and choices, And make it to the finish on their own terms. And Games like KOTOR and Detroit, give the player agency to do that same thing, whilst still on more linear paths.

Overall, I think AAA RPG games, need to take a step back from the main stories they create, and focus not on stories that are Predetermined Rat races that the protagonist is forced to participate in, that all have similar outcomes, But To instead give us a world for the protagonist to inhabit, Influence, and play, as they see fit.

I know this was a rambling and a half, and not everything here is the most coherent of my works, But I hope you all enjoyed this, and I would love to hear your thoughts below

Essentially, there can be no sequels then.
Skyrim wasnt as free as you think.

The main events still take place and happen.
No matter what you do, you are forced to follow the main story.

I think what was it fable was the only one that had actual freedom?

A set story I guess isn’t a bad thing but, given at this point humanity has seen every fucking plot possible, it can make stories kinda boring.

Give it a few hundred years.
Technology might advanced enough to get the freedom and impact you want lol.

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True skyrim wasnt super free. But your character was still for the most part yours. And unlike most other rpgs in my list, entirely avoidable pretty much, so thats where it kind of survives.

Its been ages since ive played fable. But I dont remember many choices in those games? Could be wrong.

I agree though. A set story isnt bad at all. Thats why I still really do love CP, Witcher, mass effect, etc. But I think its also a large part of why games like fallout 4 get lampooned so hard in the public eye.

And honestly its not a technology issue. Its a logistics issue. How much time and money the company wants to spend on going above and beyond a simple story arc. Its entirely possible for them to create games with ridiculous amounts of choice and consequence etc. Its just about the time it takes to create that content. Fleshing it out alone on the drawing board is considerably time consuming. Add into that production and then layer on the issue of having a voiced protagonist who instead of 16000 lines now has 80000 because of the different choices that could be made and its easy to realize why most AAA studios dont touch it.

Yet smaller studios making rpgs like divinity and wasteland take the time to do it because the style of game they make allows them to focus less on environments and world design and graphics and more on story. Point being. Possible, but too many AAA studios that should be pushing the boundaries of the box are content sitting in the corner of the box.

I don’t think I explained it well, but basically my point was, for true freedom, technology would have be advanced enough to be able to handle seemingly infinite choices.

And while I loved skyrim and oblivion, mass effect 2 and 3, never got to play one, there are always things that will happen no matter what.

And in order for it to make sense, if they make a sequel, some of the stuff you do has to be ignored, sacrificed.

I would love to have a game like that though.
Where you are free to do anything and everything you want.

For a while now I’ve thought it would be cool if we got a huge mmorpg which the players essentially created the world.

So you know how let’s say in destiny EVERYONE fought crota?
I think it would be cool if only one group got to actually defeat these world threats.

I might be going off topic, but I think it kinda fits with what you’re talking about.
Cause I think it would be cool like you see a group of players and be like, oh look, its the people who killed that one evil boss.

It would also be cool if you could kill those players.
Cause I imagine eventually a few players would become a great threat or evil in that world.

It would make it feel more alive you know?

But highly doubt we have the technology for that.

My point in this post wasnt to say that rpgs need infinite choice just to be clear. It just needs real, varied choices.

But I get what you are saying. Star citizen seems to be attempting to come as close as technology will allow for that. But still, for it to be anything more than an illusion of that technology would have to advance so significantly that we wont see it in our lifetimes.

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Sadly.

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Rebranded into an “open world action game” instead of an RPG because they dropped the ball so hard but it doesn’t have mechanics to support being an open world game either. They should’ve just done a deus ex or Prey hub world and respected their limits. The only saving grace is the art design and environment but that facade falls away as soon as you run into a civilian and cops spawn ontop of you and can’t even give chase if you just keep driving or sprint 50m away in a straight line lol. Or you play a race and the opponents just respawn behind you every couple seconds because there’s no chase AI and the game engine sucks. The open world aspects of the game are absolutely terrible and they bit off more than they could chew while flaunting as the “next generation of open world RPG” when the game is just full of scrapped content they’ll probably try to resell later just like Witcher 3.

Open worlds are a very difficult technical endeavor and its hard to not make them feel empty, its why you only see big devs tackling open world with AI systems.
CP2077 isn’t an RPG on the level of any of the other games you listed unfortunately.

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The game feels like they rebuilt it 2 or 3 times and lol at them not rebuilding the UI and just leaving the empty bottom tab of the skill tree. You’d think it unlocks into some crazy lategame skill tree and it never does because its just more scrapped content. Really they couldn’t even keep the food stand and cybernetics cutscenes and turned them all into shop windows for 20% stat changes. NPC’s all having names and procedurally generated bounties was clearly in the works too and would’ve been cool but thats gone so now its just RNG names in scan mode for no particular reason lol. No one was asking CD projekt red for insane technological feats like they’re Rockstar but atleast double down on one of your features and deliver SOMETHING unique as a game not a PS2 GTA open world experience.

Now I feel bad for making fun of Bethesda’s buggy unfinished games.

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I’m also enjoying CP77’s story but feel they could have done the set up differently to get a better RPG feel. First thing they should have done was change the beginning of the game. You should have had to earn 10 levels or so, running missions for your life paths fixers. There should have been more than one fixer, with different style missions, so you get a bit of choice about how you want to earn your money or street credit.

Second the main story should have been inserted like it was any standard quest, just longer. That way future Dlc could be inserted into the world the same way. Acting as bigger things your character could become involved in. Done correctly, you’d have to make choices and learn the world to even recognize some of the ways you could end up completing it.

Factions, the game needs a deeper Street Cred and Reputation system. One that can raise or lower based on your actions. Reputation should have deeper layers, are you trustworthy, do you complete jobs in a timely fashion, are you discreet? I want to feel like as I progress, the NPC of my microcosm have an opinion of my character that is reflected by my actions. If I’m a murderer who kills anyone who stands in my way and is deeply mercenary, they should be scared of angering me, only approaching me if they can pay the fee. If I’m an understanding and compassionate person they could ask for help or share a sob story to get my help even if they can’t pay. Little things make a big difference when it comes to immersion, and having your reputation grow based on your actions would be a good start.

Very rarely are RPG’s, the pen and paper kind, solo stories. Games like Cyberpunk almost always encourage you to play a diverse set of characters, you need your solos/samurai for combat, netrunners to protect you, help you sneak and extract valuable data. You might need a driver, heavy weapons expert, techie or even a rocker on you team to complete some missions. A deeper companion system and the ability to hire people for bigger jobs, with better Reputation rewards would add new layers to the experience.

I could go on about greater, even cosmetic Cyberware. I could talk about how you should be able to hire people for skills you don’t have, say you want to upgrade your favourite coat, you should be able to have an NPC do it.

I hope the game grows, I really do. The base they have to build from is solid, the city is beautiful but shallow, hopefully it gets deeper with time.

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@Fire Problem with destiny 1&2 though was it was lazily put together and a lot of content scrapped. Then, they chopped up a lot of the game after we paid $60 and sold us bits of the game. And to top it off each DLC you paid for was locked by the next DLC that came out so you could no longer access your old raid or areas until you paid for the new DLC.

They did the player base very dirty along with promising not to do it again in Destiny 2 and they did it again anyways. They didn’t allow you to transfer your old characters over, was basically a reskin of the old game with a couple new weapons and abilities. Where was the "10 years of fun!’ that was supposed to come with Destiny?

It was overall a disappointment and lacked replay ability. They could of done great with this game, but in the end let down a lot of people and when Destiny 2 came out didn’t get near their goal. They had the same number of players that ended up in Destiny towards the end of under a million. Their goal was 25 million again, but not many were willing to trust them after their bullshit the last game and they were right because they tried pulling their same bullshit the second time around.

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Fable 1 was the only game so far in it series were your choices somewhat mattered, but only in that game. Fable 2 although it had “some” choices, those choices really didn’t matter. Fable 3 your choices affected the world, but not the story.

Hopefully Fable 4 will be better

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I’ve never heard of much less played Fable

It’s an Xbox exclusive title
Fable 1 released on the original Xbox
Fable 2&3 released on Xbox 360
The upcoming Fable is releasing on next gen

ah