Predator Skill ceiling

#21

I don’t know. I see your points but I also think you are leaving some things out. Fireteam composition matters quite a bit. They can be on cons but if they are running glass cannons then your options are the same with or without cons involved. If they run all glass cannons whatever little shots you land hither and dither are going to have a much more detrimental impact. If they are running all big boys then you do need to be more aggressive but they are also slower so it is easier to hit or run them down. It’s all situational.

Even if the Fireteam is all on coms and know what you have you can still make some plays even if they don’t make glaring mistakes. And even with competent Fireteams sometimes those coms can work against them in small, subtle or glaring ways. If someone sees you on a hill and calls you out but you move around outside of LOS you could flank them while they are all looking in the area you were just at and catch them by surprise, people panicking, so on and so forth. If they are very good and coordinated and know how to communicate well then yeah. You are going to have to rely to some extent on them to make mistakes but you can still force those mistakes to occur. Something as simple as getting one of them to chase you five extra steps after you just applied some pressure to counter pressure you can make a huge difference.

I just think that when coms are involved it becomes almost more of a meta game where each side is more evenly matched now and you have to use this to break their formation and disrupt their communications and such.

#22

I think strong teams on comms and with good team play should be rewarded for doing it with a victory. I think it is fair. However, the problem is that these teams tend to finish mission quickly and leg it to the extraction and this is unfair on the Predator.
There are still changes needs to be made to the Fire Team to straighten up the gameplay and these are:

  1. Fire Team stamina regen is too quick and needs to be reduced drastically.
  2. Fire Team running speed, especially recon and scout classes is ridiculous and it needs to come down drastically.
  3. Spotting needs a cooldown with the formula Predators isolation scan divided by 4.
  4. More missions for Fire Team to do.
  5. Reinforcement location should not be in the same camp where mission is at. Along with it being on the opposite side of the map from extraction point.

Of course buggy bow that a lot of times shoots not where you aiming at. Sometimes shot goes 90 degrees and shoots into nearby branch if you are on the tree. Some other bugs with it too, wont say which so Fire Team wont abuse it.
Buggy movement, you get bugged out of the branch if you move while bow is being unfolded.

I think these are main issues currently.

#23

We are getting 40 win streaks as fireteams, 95% of those games we are killing the Pred outright. You can say what you like about skill to win as Pred but in any asymmetrical game it shouldn’t be this easy to win vs what should be the power role. The design and balance of the Predator is waaaay off what it should be.

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#24

I totally agree with the point about “counters”. It seems like FT has a good offensive/defensive option for anything pred does, but it does not go the other way. I really hate it when I approach FT and they pull out a knife, I feel like there’s nothing I can do.

Overall I think the problem is that pred can’t really deplete the FT of their resources. They can have so much health and health packs that it’s crazy. You sometimes have to work your alien butt off to get someone down, but someone picks them up and 10 seconds later they’re full health. And even if you do kill them all the way, they can just reinforce.

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#25

And 3 shots to destroy my biomask? Really? That’s the hardest pred counter ever and great players can do it constantly. Makes me hate this game sometimes.

#26

Well if anyone is panicking when they get the call out of your location, they aren’t very good. My case I’m making here is that with players who are not experienced yes you can probably run through them but that goes for just about any game. A Full stack of experienced players will not only panic when they know you are around but they just won’t care. Also as it comes to glass cannon, let’s say someone is boosted enough to play scout without OWLF training, firstly that falls back into the category of not enough experience, and secondly you still can’t one shot scout so it’s really not that large a hinderance with 2 insta heals med kits and free health around the map. The point is everything we try to say can work against the FT, is basically us banking on there ignorance, while everything in the predators arsenal, banks on FT member ignorance to work properly.

#27

I agree teamwork should win, I was more just making the statement cause I hear so much that it’s predator favored or this that and the other. Like i said a FT working together by definition needs to be stronger than the predator or else every game he could just blitz you. I’m just saying it’s time we all realize that this is the case.

#28

That’s not really what I said actually. Kinda misrepresented what I said. Perhaps you should read it back over. Most of what you said there is kinda repeating the claim I made but refusing to acknowledge any factors beyond that.

And ok. Firstly you can’t one shot with anything right now so I am not sure why ya brought that up. Secondly… so they can only have syringes or med kits, not both. Whenever I see a Fireteam and they are only Scout and Recon… two to three shots on even just a couple of them and look at that. They used most if not all the health at that outpost, assuming I haven’t destroyed it beforehand which I do frequently when given the chance, or have used at least one of their syringes. And they can run that OWLF all they want. If they are down a quarter health from anything and you get any charged shot on them they are going down.

Ok. So if a Fireteam doesn’t care the Predator is around… then they aren’t experienced. If they aren’t taking a threat like that seriously are idiots. So that isn’t an argument based on any sort of logic. It’s a fallacy.

Yeah. There is an element of reliance on ignorance, but you can force that. You are totally ignoring the concept of pressure. I don’t know if you realize but when you get a charged shot or even just a normal shot or two on someone that tends to have an impact. Anyone that is taking damage and does not feel pressured is brain dead. There is a lot of meta variables here you are just utterly disregarding. You are conflating anyone that is very experienced on the Fireteam with being these robotic entities that have no capacity for human error that are totally unaffected by any sort of pressure.

Your entire basis now is operating on the effective assumption that the Fireteam is filled with the equivalent of professional, world league gamers and that’s not a reasonable metric. If you are that good, yeah. If you aren’t as good on the other side it is going to be a disadvantage with or without coms and that isn’t going to change much. But with players that are equally matched or even with some moderate difference of skill it is skill plausible the Predator wins without the Fireteam just suiciding themselves.

I have played against some serious Fireteams that fucked me up and turned the tide on them with quick thinking and being ‘unpredictable’. And it’s just so cheap to say that the Fireteam has to make mistakes without giving any credit to the idea that Predators can actively cause them to make those mistakes. That is just how combat itself works. Whoever makes the fewest mistakes typically wins, if that is how you wanna frame it, which is just another way of saying that the better combatant won.

In other words your entire argument that skill is not skill, just a series of mistakes and kinda cheapening and undermining every Predator that has had any measure of success and attributing their wins to just ‘luck’. That’s a pretty misleadingly simplistic view that just ignores any and all variables of those combat situations.

#29

This problem is easily solved by

  1. increasing the Damage the AI does to FT and Predator and making AI smarter

  2. removing the spot mechanic completely or give a huge cooldown so that predator can get into position to ambush i believe it should be removed because i spam the spot button when i play as fireteam or it happens top me i will be standing completely still and some punk ass FT spam spots me and i have to move before i even got a chance to ambush, but to say that u cant win against a good FT as pred because there is no skill involved i completely disagree watch some videos of gameplay there are TACTICS to predator just gotta practice

#30

Ok so I’m responding to you having read up to the part where you said, “it’s a fallacy” cause that’s the incorrect use of the term which leads me to believe you are taking this personally and trying to sound smart to make your point but it’s not working. You also used arguments that I debunked then attempted to claim they were my arguments to begin with. You claim you wither away the squishier members, my point is even they aren’t all that squishy. So it’s not really valid. And just for your sake bringing it up, I’ll explain again. Your whole point is “if everyone brings recon” you are again, proving my point. Your strategy and success relies on what they do as a FT. If they all choose to run low supply ft members you can then use your strategy. Awesome. What if they don’t tho? Also claiming 2 insta heals per member plus free health around the map is not enough for them and you will chip away? Eh? What game are you playing. No one misrepresented you. You have straw man arguments which is whatever but don’t come back at me claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about or worse am misrepresenting you. And lastly, people not being scared when the predator is close, you think they are idiots? I never said act like nothing wrong or different just keep playing. Yeah ok pred near head on a swivel but I’m far from scared. As a full squad we easily have more Firepower and we have counters for anything he uses. Doesn’t mean we just derp around when he’s close we definitely are far from scared. And you claim, “saying that is illogical. It’s a fallacy” well dingus I know you think you sound smart using words like fallacy but fallacy by definition is only used when falsifying objective things, so even I can’t say your opinion is a fallacy, cause opinions are subjective. Any other thought provoking ideas?

#31

Didint say you can’t win or no skill involved. I said skill will only take you so far if the FT plays absolutely perfectly, and you are then relying on there mistakes. Which is totally fine. But if you think otherwise go watch a clip of a predator killing a good team, and count the mistakes they make that lead to there deaths. There will be a lot.

#32

Now having read the rest of what you said, I see you are upset, having thought I diminished your skill as a predator. Allow me to elaborate. I love playing the predator, there is no measurable way to decide skill at the moment, so for reference I’ll use another game Dead By Daylight. I’m a rank 1 killer in that game which is as high as you go, and if you think I’m trying to stroke myself, listen in, I still lose to good teams. Similar to this game, it’s set up so the 4 man team has the advantage of team work, and if they work together, they are stronger, because if the 1 players was just straight up stronger, he’d just mindlessly blitz them every time. Yes, some games as killer in Dead By Daylight, you can split pressure, get the team doing things besides the main objective due to that pressure and snow ball. Some teams though, don’t care, you can get pressure and they keep doing the main objective, will maybe lose 1 person for the good of everyone, and still escape, the concept is the same here. Pressure all you want if they really are just not buying into the atmosphere of the game and when you bear trap then they don’t immediately stare at there feet or when you net them they don’t flail around like a goon, these items aren’t very effective. Yes skill matters, I’ve made that clear. My point is the top of the top fireteams will make your skill seems less impactful as it becomes apparent you need them to fuck up to win. If you disagree that’s fine, I like having discussion and different ideas. But don’t just assume someone else is wrong and then put words in my mouth and claim I’m misrepresenting you pal.

#33

doesnt matter streamer or not. the fireteam is insane the damage output they do. a friend i play with was new too the game as of yesterday. he is aware of how underpowered predators are … the movement speed everything about them objectives completed too quickly the lack of variety

#34

It’s strong if the FT has teamwork, if they don’t then its an easy win for the predator. It’s really black or white.

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#35

You speak truth, I have played against really good fire teams that understood how to operate the way the fire team should. Those games I usually end up waving goodbye to 3-4 of them, they never made a mistake and gave an opening to exploit.

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#36

Ummmm… no. I’m no taking any of this personally. Why do I have to take something personally in order to point out why it is brazenly incorrect? I couldn’t give a shit what something else thinks of my skill or lack thereof if it was 50% and buy one get one free. I don’t give a shit. It’s a fucking game, I’m not playing to be the best around. However what you’re saying just is massively superficial. You may think I am being aggressive because I feel insulted or something but that’s just how I talk. I am brash, blunt and often harsh about how I make my points because I don’t sugar coat shit and beat around the bush, I just call it what it is and it’s a fallacy not because I’m insulted by it but it because it doesn’t make any sense.

Ok you’re telling me that I’m straw manning you… what the hell are you talking about? You are clearly and concisely stating that the only reason Predators win against experienced Fireteams is if those Fireteams make tons of mistakes. In other words… you’re saying it’s luck because when I tried to explain that more goes into it and pressure can be applied to cause to mistakes to happen by the Fireteam from the Predator and so on you just acted like that was a pipe dream and only absolute trash players would be affected by it. So if that’s not what you’re saying… then what the hell are you saying? What else do you call minimizing the success of Predator players against experienced Fireteams to just the Fireteams made lots of mistakes to just getting lucky?

Your whole point is “if everyone brings recon” you are again, proving my point. Your strategy and success relies on what they do as a FT.

Wow. That has the be the most jaded ass perception I have ever seen. Yeah.So firstly… um… is that somehow different? Do you not do the same in games like Planetside 2 or any game that requies any sort of tactical thought however minute? Or do you just do your own strategy regardless of how easily it could be countered by say a tank or something and then act like you have no power in it and it’s all based on everything else and you have no control? Or are you the kind of guy that takes a pistol to fight an armored column? Like what kind of shit are you on? I don’t think you understand what strategy is. I think you interpret it as just as some play card you whip out and throw against two totally different things and expect it to work and then if it doesn’t then you blame it on everything else.

Maybe I am stretching what you actually mean there but it just sounds ridiculous and I want you to understand that so I am making a point out of that. And it’s not even necessarily true here because a lot of different strategies can be used against the same Fireteam compositions. You think that hitting a Support three times with a Yautja Bow isn’t gonna fucking hurt, charged or not? Or that they are just gonna be cocky and not heal because they are big bois? So it’s not even true that that strategy isn’t viable even against a full team that has more Supports and Assaults. It may be more more difficult and such but it’s not just entirely impossible and then some of that yeah, does depend on what they do. That’s how strategy works. You can have your strategies and they can have their strategies and you gotta get your strategy to beat their strategy and shit. And instead of acknowledging it you have not just ignored me making that point and continued making yours but yours flies in the face of that and is stating that it’s more or less up to the Fireteam if the Predator wins or loses and the Predator has no sway in it at a certain skill level which doesn’t make much sense.

Oh really? You mean the total of FOUR, MAYBE FIVE, medical stations SCATTERED across the map? When is the last time you just saw a bunch of medical stations all grouped up? And do you HONESTLY mean to tell me that a Fireteam that has been beaten and bruished, using up the three heals at the station of where they are, is going to go out into the jungle into your fucking turf to go and search some other outpost which could be a considerable distance away just to try to get THREE of them fully healed? And the syringe isn’t even a full heal either. It’s fast but if you are getting beat it will literally only give you like one or two more hits before you die and even if he bails before that he just soaked most of that healing and now you have to pop your second/last one. You really didn’t think that bit through or you have no fucking idea how many medical stations there are or that it only takes two lazy ass uncharged PC shots to blow them and oh look at that, no more medical station. And it’s not even hard to find them because they light up on your infra red.

Oh you didn’t misrepresent me? What do you call this then:

Well if anyone is panicking when they get the call out of your location, they aren’t very good.

This is what you responded to from my initial remark. This is what I ACTUALLY said:

If someone sees you on a hill and calls you out but you move around outside of LOS you could flank them while they are all looking in the area you were just at and catch them by surprise, people panicking, so on and so forth.

Panicking wasn’t even related to the calling you out but in general through the course of combat. Literally anyone and I am sure everyone could understand that but that just flew right over your head. But I’m the one with the straw mans? Do you even know what that means? How have I even straw manned you? You’ve made one argument and I’m address that argument and the implications of it. How am I straw manning you? XD

I didn’t say people should be scared of the Predator, that is a misrepresentation as well. This is what I said:

Ok. So if a Fireteam doesn’t care the Predator is around… then they aren’t experienced.

Not caring and not freaking out are totally different things and the fact you chose to obviously misrepresent what I was saying either means you don’t understand what I am saying or are being dishonest on purpose. I also never said that you said act like nothing is wrong but apparently you think I did. Taking a threat like that seriously doesn’t mean freaking out.

Ok. So if a Fireteam doesn’t care the Predator is around… then they aren’t experienced. If they aren’t taking a threat like that seriously are idiots. So that isn’t an argument based on any sort of logic. It’s a fallacy.

The full quote here is that I stated if they are experienced and simply ignore a predator or don’t take it seriously then yeah. They are idiots and inexperienced. And suggesting otherwise would be a fallacy because any experienced player would know not to take the Predator lightly especially when they don’t know what his skill level is. And oh no I called it a logical fallacy. So what? For the vast majority that absolutely would be something which is purely fiction. Just because it can be the case means there is some subjectivity to it doesn’t mean that it largely isn’t fallacious, it just means those cases are the exception to the rule as with all things subjective.

Opinions may be subjective but strategy and such is not so simple as that and if you are ignoring a wide array of variables and such with your opinion that doesn’t make your opinion somehow valid. If you are ignoring every element of strategy, misrepresenting arguments against your case, oversimplifying a relatively complicated matter which has no black or white to it as you wish to portray it then I don’t care if your opinion is subjective because the facts don’t care about your ‘feelings’ so to speak. Following this I will attempt to go more in depth with these strategic and situational elements to keep things more or less organized here.

Ok… I know what you are trying to do and I get it here but… Dead by Daylight has some pretty gnarly issues. I understand the point you are trying to make and I wanna try to be as fair as possible with that… but… it’s just a bad example and that does kinda take away from what you are trying to say. The game has massive flaws and I know they made changes recently but the maps had disgusting ass loops that even top tier killers were constantly complaining about because it artificially adjusted the difficulty of a chase with this ‘force multiplier’ that a lesser player could still give you a stupid long chase for little to no effort comparably to their skill before they even have to start breaking out the big guns ya know? The ranking system is also just trash and that is the case with most games and not even necessarily those game’s fault entirely but… numbers just aren’t a good way to measure skill. In that game you basically have to down a survivor three times to kill them and the time it takes to complete generators for them which are done for good once they are good is kind of obscene. Even if you are able to apply good pressure you can only chase one person at a time. There’s a lot more that goes into and I know you’re trying to say that they are or anything but it just doesn’t really matter. This game has a lot more complex environment and elements and shit that goes into it and all that matters and how you use it and everything on each side and basically what you are saying is against good Fireteams it’s more or less the Fireteam’s game to lose. And that just doesn’t make sense.

There you said it again. Skill matters as the Fireteam but you are omitting the Predator. You are acting as if the Predator is more or less subject to their failings and those are your words directly there, not mind. So I’m not putting words in your mouth but you are twisting the words in my mouth as I demonstrated above. Now maybe that was a genuine misunderstanding or maybe it was intentionally dishonest, I don’t know and I don’t really care. The fact is that you misrepresented what I was saying and then claimed I was putting words in your mouth. For someone that wants to have intelligent discussion and different ideas you seem a little quick on the draw to assume the worst from what it looks like.

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#37

And the worst part about this whole is that I’m not even entirely dismissing your opinion. There is a measure of this game which is based on the Fireteam and tilted towards them, namely the mission speed lack of difficulty with that and so on. But what I am saying is that you are largely oversimplifying it.
You are missing the jungle through the trees in this case. Yes the game is still fairly tilted to help the Fireteam escape the Predator but there is a lot more that goes into that now than it did before the patch even and even then it wasn’t entirely that cut and dry for even just average players and you are talking about top tier players on both sides there it is going to an entirely different because those elements of roundabout play, the best way I can think to describe it, is going to be so amplified that even our interpretations each could be largely insignificant.

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#38

I tried reading all this man I really really did but you are clearly upset and said a lot and basically, I’ll respond short and quick, you aren’t harsh and brash you’re cringe. But anyways to the point at hand, it’s literally part of the gameplay loop that you follow them, wait for your chance, or in other words, THE MISTAKE. Then go in. So I’m not making some brave statement here. More just reminding everyone who’s frustrated that this is how the game was designed. If you think there is a single strategy in the game that will overwhelm a fireteam outright even if they play perfectly, to back and watch the game and count all the times they messed up. You keep saying “WELL WHAT IF THIS HAPPENS OR THAT ITS HUMAN ERROR PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES.” Uh yeah I know dingus, that’s why predator wins sometimes. Again it’s really not hard to understand what I’m saying. And lastly, every ammo station gives another heal, and every health station. If you think that’s not enough to sustain a FT alright that’s your opinion, but I’m just stating that in my opinion it is.

#39

So quickly browsing through this, yes, yes I am talking about the top tier. I’m saying a top tier FT, you NEED them to mess up or you aren’t killing them. That was the point of the whole topic.

#40

Ok lol. You misrepresent what my statements were and refused to address that. So now it is a little personal because you smeared some of my points and then claimed I was straw manning. And clearly upset? Why? Because I have a verbose response? Ok. If that’s what you think you are entitled to your opinion I suppose.

And then you go on in that same breath to now obviously dishonestly misrepresent what I was saying. Ok. You obviously are just injecting your expected rebuttals into an argument so you can shadow box. And what the fuck are you talking? I never said ANYTHING RESEMBLING that there was ‘one strategy to rule them all’. Misrepresenting every word that comes out of my mouth and smearing me. Are you suggesting there should be? And even then strategy isn’t the end all, be all. Your skill in carrying in carrying out that strategy is a huge factor and certain strategies are weaker against other strategies than other strategies. What part of that is such an elusive that you can’t feasibly grasp it?

No. What? Ok. You think that ammo stations restore med kits? That they just straight up give heals? What are you talking about dude? You clearly have no idea. The ammo stations don’t restore gear items nor do they heal you and those, from what I have seen although I haven’t gone out to comb the maps for it, are slightly more scarce than the medical stations. So what are you even on about?

And no. You don’t just follow them and wait for a mistake. If you do then maybe that has more to do with losing than the Fireteam making mistakes. A Fireteam is not ofte, if they are good or even just average, going to just make crucial mistakes all on their own. And it’s not even like that is even true either. You have ranged weapons, cloak which despite its flaws can still do a decent job hiding you even against a vigilant team depending how you position yourself and take shots at them to wound or even get a down on some of them. If I jump up on a building I expect them to be and they show up, I am stationary so they can’t see me and then I double tap one of them with a charged shot following a quick uncharged shot to down them… what mistake did that person make? Getting hit? Or do you think that a good Fireteam is just fucking omiscient?

You don’t seem to understand much of you are even much talking about on a fundamental level much less anything that is coming out of my mouth.

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