FT Mission Discussion

#1

I do have some opinions on the matter, but I’d really like to start a discussion on a more enriching FT experience. Some of these points also tie into predator balance and what can occur when the FT elects to completely ignore the mission in favor of traditional bloodsport. IE Deathmatch.

Topics of Interest:

  • Co-Op Objectives.
  • Mission FUBAR status (Mission can no longer be completed)
  • Lone Survivor (last man alive wants to escape)
  • Predator interaction with Mission Objectives (Predator able to alter mission parameters)
  • Mission Timer/Length

Co-Op Objectives

I often see the subject of ‘split map’ objectives. Any pred who’s ever used the Net Gun can tell you why this is harder to achieve. However, there’s nothing to prevent two FT from working a single objective. There exists some precedence for this with the wrist bomb, though in that instance it’s an individualized race. (This can include things mentioned elsewhere such as turning two keys on a console, but it needn’t be geographically separated.)

Mission FUBAR

We must consider what happens if the mission is scrapped or if there is insufficient FT to continue. In the original film, Dutch and crew do successfully clear the camp, but everybody they were sent to rescue is dead. They have to settle their losses by capturing Anna and dragging this low-level guerrilla for more intel. To the best of my knowledge, every single FT mission type always ends in a ‘smashing victory’ for the FT. Missions are completed with the odd obstacle or diversion, but the original mission objective is never beyond recovery. This, tragically, is a break from the source material.

Lone Survivor

One of the states that can trigger the above. Everybody is dead. Reinforcements are used. Its time to disappear. In order to really sell a true FT experience, there has to be hope before terror and despair can set in. How should the devs include this mechanic? Should the FT find a secondary radio to change the extraction method? Fade into the jungle for X minutes? How do they get out?
A key advantage of including this scenario is that it gives the FT a reason to watch and see what happens–rather than simply quitting out once dying after reinforcement.

Predator Mission Interaction

How can the Predator tamper with the mission to encourage Mission completion? This helps prevent the FT Deathmatch scenario (in which case we might as well play any of the previous AvP titles.) Should the predator be allowed to:

  • Create a mission FUBAR scenario
  • Alter objective location (smashing controls)
  • Reduce mission timer
  • Increase Mission timer

Initially, my thought is that if the FT fails to complete objectives in a timely manner, the predator can later become ‘aware’ of the FT’s objective and change the scenario in its favor.
(Ex: It’s been 3-5 minutes since mission progress was made. It’s time to change the game)

Mission Timer/Length

Why is the FT rushing to do their job in a 15-minute window? I realize this is quite arbitrary, but we
must take it into consideration for the above scenarios.

  • What is so terrifying that they must extract in a 15-minute mission window?
  • Do we see a major surge in AI in the last few minutes of the match?
  • Why doesn’t the AI throw stiffer resistance at the fireteam the longer the match goes on? (Or if it does, I am unaware of it.)

If the mission clock has no deeper meaning to it, then there is no rush to complete objectives outside of the Predator murdering the FT. And if we are in the Deathmatch FT scenario, then this clock has no value whatsoever. This creates other balance issues as all missions are balanced around at least 1 ‘timer’ objective that spawns additional AI. If the FT wishes to deathmatch, their job actually gets easier rather than harder in this respect.

tl;dr
I’d like opportunities to give more depth to the missions that benefit both FT and Predator immersion. And I’d like to further discussion regarding such.

4 Likes
Increase Match length
#2

A mission FUBAR would be so awesome. How cool would it be to destroy something the FT needed to extract and change up their entire mission?

1 Like
#3

I’m not a fan of these long posts but since you got my attention early on I read the whole thing.

I like the idea of causing set backs to the FT mission

I like the idea of longer matches

Sidenote - I think the game should continue if FT fail to extract. Like Sudden Death.

1 Like
#4

This is very interesting, and I’d like to talk more about it. It late though so I’ll have to get back to you.

#5

I find an outline and formatting goes a long way for long posts. Glad you enjoyed the read! I really feel that giving some measure of control over the scenario goes a long way towards making it the Predator’s hunting ground and not just a mutual combat arena.
Cinematic menace means making the FT feel like they’re losing control.

1 Like
#6

Long posts are fine. I’m just from Los Angeles where we like to be short and concise when it comes to detailing our entertainment 😅

#7

FT missions have bothered me for the longest time because they just exist and the fireteam completes them in a vaccum completely seperate from the pred or anything else going on & they just happen to force an unnatural win condition at the end. It’s exactly why playing FT is boring as hell.
Ffs instead of calling in an orbital strike on a truck let missions change up the map. Clearing blockades, calling in airstrikes, transport scientist to X location, higher risk high reward stealth missions that actually require use of silencers, securing pred tech from his ship or a lab.

This game would be much more engaging and matches would be longer if you didn’t just spawn in with the strongest weapons in the game who ACTUALLY grabs the weapon pickups?
But I.E. say pred loads in with just wristblade and caster, FT with starter weapons that don’t kill the pred in seconds. Pred has mechanics in place already (scrapped? Unfinished?) to claim AI trophies but its put to no use at all. Give FTs optional objectives to push into armories or defensible locations, if they fail before a lockdown mission timer force a retreat to a dense location with far less equipment thats very suceptible to pred ambush. Let pred juggle slowing down FT progression via killing their targets before they arrive or intercepting communications, retrieving his items before the FT does (or retrieving them back from the FT), give him a reason to hunt AI because really both sides should be interacting with AI.
Objectives have 0 interaction with the map currently and there’s nothing dynamic about it. You go from compound A to compound B and then chopper & there are no fail states. And oh boy an optional drop pod objective at the end what a decision to make.

All of this would require the AI not being garbage though and actually being a threat to the FT and predator. Hell if the pred gets captured by AI halfway through give FT an objective to go get the pred themselves, keep the game going. In a 2v10 scenario pred 2 should have a very high priority to detonate pred 1’s wrist computer if he goes down. Just throwing ideas at the wall here but a mission-based asyim is so much wasted potential it hasnt really been done yet.

#8

I am all for better mission design but you got to consider a few things. One you can’t complicate the missions more or you end up having to buff FT or nerf pred or the FT can’t complete those.

Take the advice from above, limiting FT weapons and pred to started weapons. Pred can floor the team with ristblades unless he is facing a good team, that is not common in this game. Now also remove the LMG and other weapons that put out good DPS and when he jumps in…

If the AI are a threat to the FT then AI+PRED stomp the FT. All the Pred needs to do is way for the FT to engage the AI and then kill’em all. Its already hard to deal with 10 NPC’s in armor when the Alarm sounds + the predator, now imagine competent AI that can challenge the FT… You need to rebalance everything.

Finally I am not really here to play PVE, the missions are things to move the PVP along. They should add new maps, gear and weapons. Missions… Just add more of them but don’t make them more complicated, this is about pvp, FT vs Pred not FT vs AI with predator as the cherry on top.

#9

Current game balance doesn’t really apply because AI would be the bigger threat here due to numbers. Reinforcements get thrown in as natural optionals, hell give FT more backup if necessary & defensive playstyles. Pred can’t jump in and wipe at the start because he is dealing with AI somewhere else. You can pve until you get the equipment necessary to safely pvp or do none of the objectives at all, camp the evac with your wristblades while danny glover is running around with your smart disc because you’re not here to play half the game.

#10

As i said before, not many people are here to play PVE. If I want PVE I know a few games that do it better.

#11

The current missions don’t move pvp along and are entirely optional minus the last 5 minutes assuming you dont kill the pred, the rest is an arena shooter so I don’t know if we’re playing the same game here.

#12

Sure they do, they force the engagement and give the pred openings to engage the FT. If the FT is not doing the miss, the timer get’s to 0. If the pred does not engages he loses on evac (and can’t just stay back and keep shooting arrows, he needs to commit from time to time). Also the missions serve to move the fight around the map in different “arenas” so to speak. They serve their purpose I say.

#13

Perfectly valid considerations. You’re correct about the dangers of over buffing the AI or complicating missions for ‘normal’ fireteams. So making sure the right ‘triggers’ are set for failure states or predator interference are key. Is it because the FT is too slow? Because too many are dead?

This ties back into ‘FUBAR’ and ‘Lone Survivor’ where the remaining FT may need to change parameters or pull out entirely.

We could just as easily discuss changing FT max HP or discussing Syrettes and the effect they have on gameplay, but there are likely better threads discussing the topic.

Addressing the Arena shooter comment: If the FT is at level cap, doesn’t care about XP, and there’s no reward for winning or losing. They can camp out however they like and wait for the end after clearing the map of Veritanium. In these instances, it is actually detrimental to commence any component of the mission objectives for the reason that was pointed out previously: AI interferes with shooting the predator. There was a soft correction to this with making pigs somewhat more consistent, but it doesn’t solve all cases.

Edit: So! How do we address mission time/length for FT’s that are stalling out on purpose or ignoring mission objectives in favor of pred hunting? There is some opportunity to solve this case in trying to determine -why- the FT has to pull out after 15 minutes regardless of outcome. While still allowing the opportunity to play stealthy and silent en route to objectives anyways.

#14

Yeah no you stand in water and pick up some water samples walk to the first compound disable 3 alarms and wait for the pred to show up without progressing the mission, from there you can counter engage and chase him around the map with snipers for 10 minutes because again its an arena shooter. Unless of course you’re that guy that runs ahead and rushes objectives like the pred doesn’t exist.

I’m glad one person is satisfied with fireteam gameplay and the status of the interaction wheel copy pasted bs.
At the same time you wonder why no one thinks its fun to queue fireteam and play a half assed FPS vs shit AI.

#15

This is also very valid. There’s no dynamic. No chance of failure or mistake. The AI defense waves do stop spawning after awhile regardless of how long the AI blocks an objective.

#16

People don’t want to que FT because the predator is cooler, can floor people in 2-3 seconds in melee and can be played by less skilled people and do good (majority of people are really bad on FT) by just spamming melee. Then you need to consider preds are on their 3’th consecutive class addition and the only thing FT get’s are nerfs. Also the gun play is mediocre if I am generous…

As for me when I que I don’t think about the AI, I think I hope I have a balanced game against the predator. I am not satisfied with the current game in any shape but what I am trying to tell you is that when I que FT I don’t do it because I like playing vs AI or want better AI, that would interfere with the FT vs Pred game. If you make better AI then the pred needs nerfs and he can only attack when the FT is attacked by AI. There is a reason why they are fodder and provide just distractions.

The challenge should be against the predator, AI need to remain fodder that just spawn to add flavor and push the gameplay along giving pred openings.

#17

The AI are fodder because Illfonic can’t code AI for shit they can barely navigate angles that aren’t 90 degrees. You’re defending laziness and/or a lack of talent. Is the lack of interaction animations with mission objectives a feature too? In a game where pred is supposed to attack people who are distracted there isn’t even a visual cue that the player is doing anything? Oh but I bet this is because the pred would be too strong right? Imagine if you played DBD and the survivor just tposed by the generator and waited for an interaction wheel. It’s pure laziness.

Fireteam is half-finished UE asset garbage and no one thinks its remotely engaging just maintaining LOS of your teammates and hitting the interact button while you stare at the floor EVERY SINGLE GAME. But gee I wonder why no one wants to play FT it couldn’t be because the gameplay and mission structure just sucks and isnt satisfying at all lets add more of the same missions and shoot at the same motionless AI on a different map with a different gun I need veratanium.
People don’t want to queue FT because it’s the worst shooter gameplay in a decade even if you’re in a full premade wiping preds nonstop, its mindless and repetitive.

#18

Its also because they can’t code shit but you can’t improve it even if you wanted it and not nerf the pred. I’ve seen AI running into one another on a spot trying to go different ways.

When FT interacts with something usually he puts 1 arm forward but if he is near a mission objective you should assume he is interacting with it. Yeah, those are obviously not features and the game has a lot to improve in those areas but we where talking about AI and how it would effect the FT if they where made more powerful and not the lack of design and polishing this game has (or lack of it).

FT need a lot of love but again, making the game go into a PVE route is not why I play this game, that is all I am trying to say to you. We need more content, better animations, more mission variety, more maps, more guns, more game modes and a lot more.

#19

Let’s address a few scenarios:

FT completes the mission and evacs in 4-5 minutes.

I don’t really see this as a problem with mission balancing so much as the FT being effective and the predator being absent or sloppy. If they’re moving that quickly, the mission path is more predictable. This is a game knowledge/experience issue. Though if people feel that strongly, we can always discuss which missions excel at length and which fall terribly short.

Predator slays the FT in 4 minutes

Strangely this is harder to gauge. Most commonly caused by a complete lack of parry skill within the FT and a predator new enough that he’s still willing to combi-copter or combi-kaze through the FT even though his queue time is twice that of gameplay. Hahaha.

Predator gets sloppy and dies in 5 minutes

This usually means the predator was bad, the FT was good, or there’s some third factor (weapon macros but this is an anti-cheat case and outside this thread’s range.) Does it happen a lot? Sure. There is a learning curve to predator once they realize that parry is a real mechanic that has to be managed. While considerable, this also falls under the more general column of ‘balance’ with respect to the predator and FT’s directly.

Fireteam goes the full 15 without a casualty

This is generally a case of the FT completely forsaking any disadvantage of spawning AI to camp a single location or chase the predator around the map. The game is balanced around the PvE element occurring and creating openings—however bad the AI might be.

1 Fireteam remains, no reinforce, 15 minutes

This is the other fringe case I would hope to see fixed through discussion contributions. PvE aspects aside, the PvP aspect of Survival and Evasion is presently untapped. I want the ‘Lone Survivor’ to have that tense moment trying to disappear. It’s arguably the tensest situation for the surviving FT and, in personal experience, the most heart pounding. But making it to the chopper under the present circumstance is… impossible if the Evac isn’t already well underway. If there’s 5 minutes left on the clock and everybody is dead, what do you do as FT? Sit on a grenade and start the next round?

tl;dr
How do we better prevent a 15 minute death match and how do we allow a lone FT to escape successfully?

#20

I agree 3 minutes to 3.5 is too short for fireteam missions. The being left behind part and leaving a timer is dumb as fuck like the predator wouldnt be there at exfil and shred the ft in seconds what’s the point with the current mechanic there is a way to lose for the predator not capturing trophies before exfil if in 15 minutes you have multiple ft still alive at the choppa, then you need more practice as a predator. And the reason most fireteams run through missions is often the predator rushes the whole team in the beginning and getting as much done as possibleis necessary if your gonna get a choppa. Most of this sounds good except the time limit is how your glorious or flop and making fireteam people be cannon fodder for predators that cant seal the deal in 15 minutes would just be irritating as fireteam